Crazy ape comment aside (iād put it closer to apes with delusions of grandeur but thatās just me), not shooting guns and allowing hunting arenāt mutually exclusive.
Especially given all the hunting that happened pre-gun.
I donāt know if itās on purpose but your answer seems to be ignoring a lot of the realities of how the things you are proposing would work (or not work, as the case may be).
Sure, you can hunt without guns. I donāt really see an argument for not using them though, as long as thereās no lead. Whatās really the ethical or environment argument in favor of only allowing bows, or whatever? I see the emotional appeal, if people have a negative view of guns. Not a logical appeal though, besides maybe making them harder to access to prevent deaths by firearms. If you can ban hunting with firearms, you can also just ban using lead ammo, so I donāt see how banning them is the best option in general.
I didnāt make any proposals in my above comment. Itās entirely statements of observations. I donāt know what you mean by saying you donāt see how they would work or not. I gave explanations of why hunting isnāt negative, and is often positive, but not any proposals of how anything should be done. Would you care to elaborate?
Have-A-Heart traps are used by animal welfare groups and animal shelters, so I donāt know if itās so bad to wait in the trap, unless said animal groups are incorrect to use said traps. Admittedly, cats who have never encountered these traps sometimes freak out when first trapped, and cats who have seen them before can outsmart them easily. Iāve never thought they were good for trapping cats, as they are specifically designed NOT to trap cats.
Have-A-Heart traps are intended to trap furbearing animals but allow for the release of cats, dogs or endagered species. Youāve probably seen them before. These staps are box rectangle shaped, chrome colored, and are activated when the animal places their weight on the lever in the back of the trap. These are also called double door traps.
Bolt guns are commonly used in animal slaughter and are often considered āhumane.ā If you eat red meat, the cow was likely killed with a captive bolt gun.
Iām familiar with all of the technology involved, but Iām not sure about the applications youāre describing.
With a Have-A-Heart, the specific goal is live capture and release. There is no killing involved. The animal might be properly freaked out at the experience of being trapped, but that is specifically so as to permit an animalās live relocation.
With a bolt gun, itās meant to be used in a slaughterhouse scenario, which is a whole moral discussion of its own, but at bare minimum one wants the animals to be kept as calm as possible until the bolt gun is applied, because stressed out meat tastes worse than calm and placid up until the moment of death.
With hunting, the goal is to kill the target as cleanly as possible, preferably with a single bullet. Thatās the Scenario A Iām describing above.
If one were hunting an animal with the intent of killing it, then a trap, followed by a knife or bolt gun, would maximize the terror felt by the animal to be killed. Sure, one may be putting less lead out in the environment, but at the cost of putting the animal throughā¦ almost the most appalling experience of death possible, with the admitted exception of a poorly-aimed bullet or arrow, followed by a wounded flight through the woods and slowly bleeding out.
Soā¦ if oneās absolute maximum goal is to reduce environmental lead, yes, that is one way to do it, but the moral implications of that method seem pretty rough.
We are not āhuntingā an animal and stalking it, and then coming at it with a big trap, then leaving it there for hours before itās killed. The trap is set, and then the trapper leaves. The animal usually doesnāt see the trapper until right before the moment of death.
That works. Iām not saying you canāt hunt with other methods. Iām just saying that I canāt see much of an argument against the use of leadless firearms for hunting, besides a weak gun control one (hunting weapons arenāt a significant portion of the danger from firearms, mostly handguns or rifles like the AR-15). People can hunt however they want, or not at all, as long as it is controlled to healthy levels and doesnāt cause any other issues, and, ideally doesnāt cause unnecessary suffering to the animal.
To hunt? No. I donāt even think itās legal to hunt with it. It is the most popular rifle, but it isnāt for hunting. Itās for target shooting (in theory, if itās for sport), or āself-defenseā.
A quick search shows itās prohibited in just 4 states. Many states have conditions that apply to configuration of rifles (and shotguns) such as capacity limits, so those would affect them the same.
There isnāt any argument for gun control. Tell the CIA to stop grooming kids on Discord and Telegram to do school shootings, problem solved. Notice this never happens in Iceland. Thatās because their version of the CIA isnāt on Discord.
Sure, you can hunt without guns. I donāt really see an argument for not using them though, as long as thereās no lead.
In the isolated context of lead poisoning alone, sure, banning lead is an answer.
In the greater context of gun ownership in general, itās more tricky.
But i wasnāt advocating either , simply pointing out that banning guns and allowing hunting arenāt mutually exclusive.
Whatās really the ethical or environment argument in favor of only allowing bows, or whatever?
There are some , but i wasnāt pushing for any so iām not sure they are relevant here.
I see the emotional appeal, if people have a negative view of guns. Not a logical appeal though, besides maybe making them harder to access to prevent deaths by firearms.
Either you havenāt thought this all way through or you are intentionally ignoring the whole host of other emotional and logical arguments around gun control.
If you can ban hunting with firearms, you can also just ban using lead ammo, so I donāt see how banning them is the best option in general.
As was said previously, in this isolated context you are probably right, in any kind of wider context, not so much.
I didnāt make any proposals in my above comment. Itās entirely statements of observations. I donāt know what you mean by saying you donāt see how they would work or not. I gave explanations of why hunting isnāt negative, and is often positive, but not any proposals of how anything should be done. Would you care to elaborate?
Thatās possibly my bad, i meant more that you were making statements without any (written) consideration to the wider context in which they were made.
I donāt necessarily disagree(or agree) with you, but i absolutely think your arguments need work.
Examples:
I will preface this by saying that my perspective on ānatureā is that we are part of it, even will all the fucked up self destructive stuff we have going on , so itās not like we can really do anything āunnaturalā, i use the term natural below to mean nature if we didnāt have such an outsized effect on natural processes.
From an environmental perspective, hunting keeps pray populations in naturally healthy levels, since most of their predators are driven out of populated areas, because people donāt like to be attacked by wild animals.
Thatās only true in an ecosystem where the predator (us) and the prey are in natural equilibrium, which Iām sure youāll agree is absolutely not the case.
Without that natural equilibrium you need formal and enforced regulation to make this work.
This magical ānaturally healthyā state of existence glosses over a lot of problems with that statement.
It also doesnāt consume many resources, as theyāre just living their lives in nature.
Also requires a natural equilibrium or regulation as a baseline.
I donāt think thereās any valid argument against hunting honestly, besides just being grossed out by it.
I canāt construct a good argument against it though, and I suspect you canāt either.
Overhunting and ecosystem collapse, trophy hunting, selective hunting (think ivory), disease control, hunting for āsportā (think fox āhuntingā).
Those were just off the top of my head.
and remember animals dying and being eaten is natural, and frequently necessary to maintain an equilibrium that was evolved to be maintained by external factors
an equilibrium, not the only equilibrium, it also mentions evolution of equilibriums but is presented from a perspective that the equilibrium presented is now fixed (it is not).
we are also animals, so us dying and being eaten also fall under this, so by that rationale another effective solution could be to reintroduce more (non-human) predators and a few of us die here and there, but the animal populations now stay under control.
Deer, for example, will die horrible deaths of starvation, and do damage to the environment, if they arenāt hunted by humans.
Until a new equilibrium is reached, because thatās how ecosystems work (or collapse, depending).
āDamageā is relative and a natural part of the evolution(or collapse) of ecosystems.
Either you havenāt thought this all way through or you are intentionally ignoring the whole host of other emotional and logical arguments around gun control.
If weāre talking about gun control, fine. Iām all for reasonable gun control. I donāt think targeting hunting rifles/shotguns are the most useful though. Handguns are the issue there. Still, yeah, more good gun control would be nice. Not really part of this discussion though, but thatās the one argument I did consider, but doesnāt really apply to hunting weapons. If we can get it passed for the weapons that actually matter, then Iād agree losing hunting weapons are fine.
Thatās only true in an ecosystem where the predator (us) and the prey are in natural equilibrium, which Iām sure youāll agree is absolutely not the case.
Without that natural equilibrium you need formal and enforced regulation to make this work.
Yes. That formal enforced regulation needs to exist, and I donāt know anywhere that it doesnāt. In the US, you need a license, and you can only kill a certain number of the animal per season, and thatās all based on how many of the animals need to be culled, and it does need to be done. Equilibrium is maintained through this regulation.
This magical ānaturally healthyā state of existence glosses over a lot of problems with that statement.
I never said ānaturally healthyā. I said they evolved to have a certain percentage of losses. If that isnāt maintained by other predators, we need to do it. Itās naturally (in its current state) unhealthy. Hunting is required to keep it healthy.
we are also animals, so us dying and being eaten also fall under this, so by that rationale another effective solution could be to reintroduce more (non-human) predators and a few of us die here and there, but the animal populations now stay under control.
Sure. Thatād be another solution. If weāre discussing policy, I think we can safely ignore it though. Thereās a lot of solutions that are not going to happen. We donāt need to rule out all of them to discuss what we actually can do.
Until a new equilibrium is reached, because thatās how ecosystems work (or collapse, depending).
No. They boom and collapse. This repeats, until evolution takes itās course maybe, which will be quite a while. It doesnāt reach an equilibrium state because they evolutionary pressures were different when they evolved. Maybe this isnāt true for all prey animals, but many, such as deer and rabbits, it is. Population booms, they eat all easily available food, they die off from starvation or disease, then they boom back.
A lot of your argument against hunting is that it requires regulation. No one is arguing against that. It is needed, and this is already recognized and enforced. We just need to now enforce participation in a way that doesnāt create negative externalities from lead poisoning.
Yes. That formal enforced regulation needs to exist, and I donāt know anywhere that it doesnāt. In the US, you need a license, and you can only kill a certain number of the animal per season, and thatās all based on how many of the animals need to be culled, and it does need to be done. Equilibrium is maintained through this regulation.
Animals donāt need to be culled, for the maintenance of the current pseudo equilibrium itās probably a good idea, but itās not an absolute requirement.
I never said ānaturally healthyā
I literally quoted you.
I said they evolved to have a certain percentage of losses. If that isnāt maintained by other predators, we need to do it. Itās naturally (in its current state) unhealthy. Hunting is required to keep it healthy.
Hunting is the one of the current mechanisms we use to (roughly) maintain the status quo, itās not the only mechanism, nor is it the only option, itās just one of the ones we are using right now.
Healthy is relative in multiple ways, there would be a new equilibrium on the other side of the shitstorm that would probably arise from us dropping our current efforts with no replacement.
That might be subjectively bad for us, but it would exist.
Sure. Thatād be another solution. If weāre discussing policy, I think we can safely ignore it though. Thereās a lot of solutions that are not going to happen. We donāt need to rule out all of them to discuss what we actually can do.
Unless thereās some sort of magic book that already has the answers to what is and isnāt viable then we very much do need to rule them out, thatās how decisions and policies are made.
No. They boom and collapse. This repeats, until evolution takes itās course maybe, which will be quite a while. It doesnāt reach an equilibrium state because they evolutionary pressures were different when they evolved. Maybe this isnāt true for all prey animals, but many, such as deer and rabbits, it is. Population booms, they eat all easily available food, they die off from starvation or disease, then they boom back.
Iām not sure what the no is about given the following sentences basically say the same thing i did.
If they arenāt fit they die off, a new equilibrium is reached or the ecosystem collapses.
āThey boom and collapse.,This repeats, until evolution takes itās course maybe, which will be quite a while.ā is one way an equilibrium is reached if the species(singular or plural) donāt die off.
A lot of your argument against hunting is that it requires regulation. No one is arguing against that. It is needed, and this is already recognized and enforced. We just need to now enforce participation in a way that doesnāt create negative externalities from lead poisoning.
Iād be interested to see where youāre seeing an argument against hunting from me as, afaik, i havenāt said anything to that effect.
My only argument has been that your statements were omitting what i would consider important context.
Animals donāt need to be culled, for the maintenance of the current pseudo equilibrium itās probably a good idea, but itās not an absolute requirement.
Literally nothing is required. Whatās your point? Are you just trying to argue about nothing? The Earth can just be destroyed. It isnāt required to exist. So what? Weāre talking about solutions to a problem. There is a problem with lead bullets. Thereās also a problem with a lack of natural predation. We should try to solve these problems. We donāt have to solve any problem, but whatās the point in starting arguments with people online saying we donāt need to solve anything?
I never said ānaturally healthyā
I literally quoted you.
I had to go back to see what was said. I didnāt say anything was special about it being natural, like what you implied by saying it was magical. I said itās kept naturally healthy by predators, as in nature had a mechanism to keep it healthy. This isnāt an appeal to nature, as you implied. Itās a statement of fact. It isnāt saying natural is better. Itās saying there is a natural thing. Doing it without nature accomplishes the same goal. So you did āquote meā in that you used two words I also used, you didnāt include anything else surrounding it, and made it say something it didnāt.
Healthy is relative in multiple ways, there would be a new equilibrium on the other side of the shitstorm that would probably arise from us dropping our current efforts with no replacement.
As I said. We could wait for evolution to take its course. I donāt think waiting centuries with booming and crashing populations of animals is a particularly smart idea. Maybe you do, but you havenāt said anything other than āwe donāt have to do anything.ā Again, no shit! Stop writing these long comments saying literally nothing.
Unless thereās some sort of magic book that already has the answers to what is and isnāt viable then we very much do need to rule them out, thatās how decisions and policies are made.
No, we donāt. We donāt need to discuss magical fairies taking care of the problem. We donāt need to discuss finding a magic lamp to solve the problem. Some things can safely be ignored because theyāre so unlikely to happen.
Iām not sure what the no is about given the following sentences basically say the same thing i did.
Iād be interested to see where youāre seeing an argument against hunting from me as, afaik, i havenāt said anything to that effect.
Fair enough. You arenāt making any argument besides that we should do everything but discuss how to solve these issues. Someone said hunting needed to stop. I said itās necessary for the current state of things. Youāve argued against what I said, which implies an argument against hunting, but really itās just an annoying āā¦ but what aboutā argument making no claims and no actual arguments.
This is my last reply unless you actually want to have a discussion. If you do, discuss in good faith. We do not have to rule out things that canāt reasonably happen. We should assume that suffering is at least somewhat negative. We should assume that environmental experts saying prey populations need to be culled are correct. If you donāt agree to these, there isnāt a discussion to be had.
My only point has consistently been that your statements lacked important supporting context and are written like they are the only correct option, that weakens them.
Questioning your weak statements seems to have upset you and rather than actually responding to my only actual point youāve constructed multiple other positions iāve not taken.
When asked for examples you moved to āyou are discussing in bad faithā (still no examples , i might add).
A discussion is impossible with someone unwilling to engage (or unable to understand) the actual position of the other party.
The rest is just a long winded version of this, feel free to skip it.
Literally nothing is required. Whatās your point? Are you just trying to argue about nothing? ā¦
My whole point, which i have stated multiple times, is that your statements are weak.
things like āand it does need to be done.ā implies that it is the only answer, when it isnāt.
There is a problem with lead bullets. Thereās also a problem with a lack of natural predation. We should try to solve these problems. We donāt have to solve any problem, but whatās the point in starting arguments with people online saying we donāt need to solve anything?
Again, point to where anyone said we donāt need to solve anything ?
If your answer to someone questioning the validity of your statements is to say āfuck it, obviously you just mean we shouldnāt solve anythingā then i expect thereās nothing further to gain from a conversation.
I had to go back to see what was said. I didnāt say anything was special about it being natural, like what you implied by saying it was magical. I said itās kept naturally healthy by predators, as in nature had a mechanism to keep it healthy. This isnāt an appeal to nature, as you implied. Itās a statement of fact. It isnāt saying natural is better. Itās saying there is a natural thing. Doing it without nature accomplishes the same goal. So you did āquote meā in that you used two words I also used, you didnāt include anything else surrounding it, and made it say something it didnāt.
I literally quoted the surrounding sentence in that reply, not just the two words, if you didnāt read it , thatās on you.
As iāve said, multiple times, there are mechanisms in place for balance and/or collapse, healthy is subjective.
As I said. We could wait for evolution to take its course. I donāt think waiting centuries with booming and crashing populations of animals is a particularly smart idea. Maybe you do, but you havenāt said anything other than āwe donāt have to do anything.ā Again, no shit! Stop writing these long comments saying literally nothing.
In your reply to me, yes, in the original response, not so much, which again i will remind you is the actual issue iāve been mentioning this whole time.
My original reply was basically , āi donāt agree or disagree with your points but perhaps add context so your arguments arenāt so brittleā everything after that is responding to your questions. Its seems my responses arenāt to your liking but iām not sure thereās anything i can do about that.
Iāll add a TL;DR; for you so you can skim.
No, we donāt. We donāt need to discuss magical fairies taking care of the problem. We donāt need to discuss finding a magic lamp to solve the problem. Some things can safely be ignored because theyāre so unlikely to happen.
I never said discussion was needed, i said that ruling out options is a part of how decisions and policies are made, if you think magical fairies being ruled out requires discussion, thatās on you.
In the actual context on this thread of discussion i think that artificially increased predation could be (and historically has been) a viable solution to overpopulation.
Ceding areas to wildlife has also been used.
I said specifically that a shitstorm would probably be the result of dropping our current measures without a replacement that doesnāt mean other options canāt be discussed.
And that whole reply was again to point out the statement you made was an implied objective fact.
You arenāt making any argument besides that we should do everything but discuss how to solve these issues.
I meanā¦no , iāll quote my repeated statements of my only arguments :
I donāt know if itās on purpose but your answer seems to be ignoring a lot of the realities of how the things you are proposing would work (or not work, as the case may be).
I donāt necessarily disagree(or agree) with you, but i absolutely think your arguments need work.
My only argument has been that your statements were omitting what i would consider important context.
and then in this response
āi donāt agree or disagree with your points but perhaps add context so your arguments arenāt so brittleā
If you want to attribute some other argument to me (that isnāt a direct response to your questions) Iād appreciate if you could point out where it was made.
This is my last reply unless you actually want to have a discussion. If you do, discuss in good faith. We do not have to rule out things that canāt reasonably happen.
All of my responses were in good faith, if you donāt understand that dismissing something because it is unlikely is literally ruling out an option i canāt help you with that.
We should assume that suffering is at least somewhat negative.
I donāt know what you mean by this but Iām fairly sure i havenāt argued to the contrary.
We should assume that environmental experts saying prey populations need to be culled are correct.
Again, i havenāt argued against this, only that itās not the only option, as was implied by your statements.
If you donāt agree to these, there isnāt a discussion to be had.
I agree, āIf you donāt agree to these things Iāve unilaterally stated to be true with no contextual support or citations then your responses are in bad faithā isnāt a discussion, itās a personal echo chamber.
Crazy ape comment aside (iād put it closer to apes with delusions of grandeur but thatās just me), not shooting guns and allowing hunting arenāt mutually exclusive.
Especially given all the hunting that happened pre-gun.
I donāt know if itās on purpose but your answer seems to be ignoring a lot of the realities of how the things you are proposing would work (or not work, as the case may be).
Sure, you can hunt without guns. I donāt really see an argument for not using them though, as long as thereās no lead. Whatās really the ethical or environment argument in favor of only allowing bows, or whatever? I see the emotional appeal, if people have a negative view of guns. Not a logical appeal though, besides maybe making them harder to access to prevent deaths by firearms. If you can ban hunting with firearms, you can also just ban using lead ammo, so I donāt see how banning them is the best option in general.
I didnāt make any proposals in my above comment. Itās entirely statements of observations. I donāt know what you mean by saying you donāt see how they would work or not. I gave explanations of why hunting isnāt negative, and is often positive, but not any proposals of how anything should be done. Would you care to elaborate?
Where I grew up, most people use a Have-a-Heart trap or a snare, then a knife or captive bolt gun (no bulltets).
Scenario A: Youāre minding your own business, when a bullet passes through your heart/lungs and youāre dead in seconds.
Scenario B: You get caught in a trap and wait for hours for an ape with a knife or a bolt gun to come along and finish the job.
Honestly, if I were an animal, Iād prefer Scenario A.
Have-A-Heart traps are used by animal welfare groups and animal shelters, so I donāt know if itās so bad to wait in the trap, unless said animal groups are incorrect to use said traps. Admittedly, cats who have never encountered these traps sometimes freak out when first trapped, and cats who have seen them before can outsmart them easily. Iāve never thought they were good for trapping cats, as they are specifically designed NOT to trap cats.
Have-A-Heart traps are intended to trap furbearing animals but allow for the release of cats, dogs or endagered species. Youāve probably seen them before. These staps are box rectangle shaped, chrome colored, and are activated when the animal places their weight on the lever in the back of the trap. These are also called double door traps.
Bolt guns are commonly used in animal slaughter and are often considered āhumane.ā If you eat red meat, the cow was likely killed with a captive bolt gun.
Iām familiar with all of the technology involved, but Iām not sure about the applications youāre describing.
With a Have-A-Heart, the specific goal is live capture and release. There is no killing involved. The animal might be properly freaked out at the experience of being trapped, but that is specifically so as to permit an animalās live relocation.
With a bolt gun, itās meant to be used in a slaughterhouse scenario, which is a whole moral discussion of its own, but at bare minimum one wants the animals to be kept as calm as possible until the bolt gun is applied, because stressed out meat tastes worse than calm and placid up until the moment of death.
With hunting, the goal is to kill the target as cleanly as possible, preferably with a single bullet. Thatās the Scenario A Iām describing above.
If one were hunting an animal with the intent of killing it, then a trap, followed by a knife or bolt gun, would maximize the terror felt by the animal to be killed. Sure, one may be putting less lead out in the environment, but at the cost of putting the animal throughā¦ almost the most appalling experience of death possible, with the admitted exception of a poorly-aimed bullet or arrow, followed by a wounded flight through the woods and slowly bleeding out.
Soā¦ if oneās absolute maximum goal is to reduce environmental lead, yes, that is one way to do it, but the moral implications of that method seem pretty rough.
I am extremely confused by your scenario.
We are not āhuntingā an animal and stalking it, and then coming at it with a big trap, then leaving it there for hours before itās killed. The trap is set, and then the trapper leaves. The animal usually doesnāt see the trapper until right before the moment of death.
That works. Iām not saying you canāt hunt with other methods. Iām just saying that I canāt see much of an argument against the use of leadless firearms for hunting, besides a weak gun control one (hunting weapons arenāt a significant portion of the danger from firearms, mostly handguns or rifles like the AR-15). People can hunt however they want, or not at all, as long as it is controlled to healthy levels and doesnāt cause any other issues, and, ideally doesnāt cause unnecessary suffering to the animal.
Isnāt the AR-15 the most popular rifle to hunt with in the US?
To hunt? No. I donāt even think itās legal to hunt with it. It is the most popular rifle, but it isnāt for hunting. Itās for target shooting (in theory, if itās for sport), or āself-defenseā.
A quick search shows itās prohibited in just 4 states. Many states have conditions that apply to configuration of rifles (and shotguns) such as capacity limits, so those would affect them the same.
There isnāt any argument for gun control. Tell the CIA to stop grooming kids on Discord and Telegram to do school shootings, problem solved. Notice this never happens in Iceland. Thatās because their version of the CIA isnāt on Discord.
In the isolated context of lead poisoning alone, sure, banning lead is an answer.
In the greater context of gun ownership in general, itās more tricky.
But i wasnāt advocating either , simply pointing out that banning guns and allowing hunting arenāt mutually exclusive.
There are some , but i wasnāt pushing for any so iām not sure they are relevant here.
Either you havenāt thought this all way through or you are intentionally ignoring the whole host of other emotional and logical arguments around gun control.
As was said previously, in this isolated context you are probably right, in any kind of wider context, not so much.
Thatās possibly my bad, i meant more that you were making statements without any (written) consideration to the wider context in which they were made.
I donāt necessarily disagree(or agree) with you, but i absolutely think your arguments need work.
Examples:
I will preface this by saying that my perspective on ānatureā is that we are part of it, even will all the fucked up self destructive stuff we have going on , so itās not like we can really do anything āunnaturalā, i use the term natural below to mean nature if we didnāt have such an outsized effect on natural processes.
Thatās only true in an ecosystem where the predator (us) and the prey are in natural equilibrium, which Iām sure youāll agree is absolutely not the case.
Without that natural equilibrium you need formal and enforced regulation to make this work.
This magical ānaturally healthyā state of existence glosses over a lot of problems with that statement.
Also requires a natural equilibrium or regulation as a baseline.
Overhunting and ecosystem collapse, trophy hunting, selective hunting (think ivory), disease control, hunting for āsportā (think fox āhuntingā).
Those were just off the top of my head.
an equilibrium, not the only equilibrium, it also mentions evolution of equilibriums but is presented from a perspective that the equilibrium presented is now fixed (it is not).
we are also animals, so us dying and being eaten also fall under this, so by that rationale another effective solution could be to reintroduce more (non-human) predators and a few of us die here and there, but the animal populations now stay under control.
Until a new equilibrium is reached, because thatās how ecosystems work (or collapse, depending).
āDamageā is relative and a natural part of the evolution(or collapse) of ecosystems.
If weāre talking about gun control, fine. Iām all for reasonable gun control. I donāt think targeting hunting rifles/shotguns are the most useful though. Handguns are the issue there. Still, yeah, more good gun control would be nice. Not really part of this discussion though, but thatās the one argument I did consider, but doesnāt really apply to hunting weapons. If we can get it passed for the weapons that actually matter, then Iād agree losing hunting weapons are fine.
Yes. That formal enforced regulation needs to exist, and I donāt know anywhere that it doesnāt. In the US, you need a license, and you can only kill a certain number of the animal per season, and thatās all based on how many of the animals need to be culled, and it does need to be done. Equilibrium is maintained through this regulation.
I never said ānaturally healthyā. I said they evolved to have a certain percentage of losses. If that isnāt maintained by other predators, we need to do it. Itās naturally (in its current state) unhealthy. Hunting is required to keep it healthy.
Sure. Thatād be another solution. If weāre discussing policy, I think we can safely ignore it though. Thereās a lot of solutions that are not going to happen. We donāt need to rule out all of them to discuss what we actually can do.
No. They boom and collapse. This repeats, until evolution takes itās course maybe, which will be quite a while. It doesnāt reach an equilibrium state because they evolutionary pressures were different when they evolved. Maybe this isnāt true for all prey animals, but many, such as deer and rabbits, it is. Population booms, they eat all easily available food, they die off from starvation or disease, then they boom back.
A lot of your argument against hunting is that it requires regulation. No one is arguing against that. It is needed, and this is already recognized and enforced. We just need to now enforce participation in a way that doesnāt create negative externalities from lead poisoning.
Animals donāt need to be culled, for the maintenance of the current pseudo equilibrium itās probably a good idea, but itās not an absolute requirement.
I literally quoted you.
Hunting is the one of the current mechanisms we use to (roughly) maintain the status quo, itās not the only mechanism, nor is it the only option, itās just one of the ones we are using right now.
Healthy is relative in multiple ways, there would be a new equilibrium on the other side of the shitstorm that would probably arise from us dropping our current efforts with no replacement.
That might be subjectively bad for us, but it would exist.
Unless thereās some sort of magic book that already has the answers to what is and isnāt viable then we very much do need to rule them out, thatās how decisions and policies are made.
Iām not sure what the no is about given the following sentences basically say the same thing i did.
If they arenāt fit they die off, a new equilibrium is reached or the ecosystem collapses.
āThey boom and collapse.,This repeats, until evolution takes itās course maybe, which will be quite a while.ā is one way an equilibrium is reached if the species(singular or plural) donāt die off.
Iād be interested to see where youāre seeing an argument against hunting from me as, afaik, i havenāt said anything to that effect.
My only argument has been that your statements were omitting what i would consider important context.
Literally nothing is required. Whatās your point? Are you just trying to argue about nothing? The Earth can just be destroyed. It isnāt required to exist. So what? Weāre talking about solutions to a problem. There is a problem with lead bullets. Thereās also a problem with a lack of natural predation. We should try to solve these problems. We donāt have to solve any problem, but whatās the point in starting arguments with people online saying we donāt need to solve anything?
I had to go back to see what was said. I didnāt say anything was special about it being natural, like what you implied by saying it was magical. I said itās kept naturally healthy by predators, as in nature had a mechanism to keep it healthy. This isnāt an appeal to nature, as you implied. Itās a statement of fact. It isnāt saying natural is better. Itās saying there is a natural thing. Doing it without nature accomplishes the same goal. So you did āquote meā in that you used two words I also used, you didnāt include anything else surrounding it, and made it say something it didnāt.
As I said. We could wait for evolution to take its course. I donāt think waiting centuries with booming and crashing populations of animals is a particularly smart idea. Maybe you do, but you havenāt said anything other than āwe donāt have to do anything.ā Again, no shit! Stop writing these long comments saying literally nothing.
No, we donāt. We donāt need to discuss magical fairies taking care of the problem. We donāt need to discuss finding a magic lamp to solve the problem. Some things can safely be ignored because theyāre so unlikely to happen.
Fair enough. You arenāt making any argument besides that we should do everything but discuss how to solve these issues. Someone said hunting needed to stop. I said itās necessary for the current state of things. Youāve argued against what I said, which implies an argument against hunting, but really itās just an annoying āā¦ but what aboutā argument making no claims and no actual arguments.
This is my last reply unless you actually want to have a discussion. If you do, discuss in good faith. We do not have to rule out things that canāt reasonably happen. We should assume that suffering is at least somewhat negative. We should assume that environmental experts saying prey populations need to be culled are correct. If you donāt agree to these, there isnāt a discussion to be had.
TL;DR;
My only point has consistently been that your statements lacked important supporting context and are written like they are the only correct option, that weakens them.
Questioning your weak statements seems to have upset you and rather than actually responding to my only actual point youāve constructed multiple other positions iāve not taken.
When asked for examples you moved to āyou are discussing in bad faithā (still no examples , i might add).
A discussion is impossible with someone unwilling to engage (or unable to understand) the actual position of the other party.
The rest is just a long winded version of this, feel free to skip it.
My whole point, which i have stated multiple times, is that your statements are weak.
things like āand it does need to be done.ā implies that it is the only answer, when it isnāt.
Again, point to where anyone said we donāt need to solve anything ?
If your answer to someone questioning the validity of your statements is to say āfuck it, obviously you just mean we shouldnāt solve anythingā then i expect thereās nothing further to gain from a conversation.
I literally quoted the surrounding sentence in that reply, not just the two words, if you didnāt read it , thatās on you.
As iāve said, multiple times, there are mechanisms in place for balance and/or collapse, healthy is subjective.
In your reply to me, yes, in the original response, not so much, which again i will remind you is the actual issue iāve been mentioning this whole time.
My original reply was basically , āi donāt agree or disagree with your points but perhaps add context so your arguments arenāt so brittleā everything after that is responding to your questions. Its seems my responses arenāt to your liking but iām not sure thereās anything i can do about that.
Iāll add a TL;DR; for you so you can skim.
I never said discussion was needed, i said that ruling out options is a part of how decisions and policies are made, if you think magical fairies being ruled out requires discussion, thatās on you.
In the actual context on this thread of discussion i think that artificially increased predation could be (and historically has been) a viable solution to overpopulation.
Ceding areas to wildlife has also been used.
I said specifically that a shitstorm would probably be the result of dropping our current measures without a replacement that doesnāt mean other options canāt be discussed.
And that whole reply was again to point out the statement you made was an implied objective fact.
I meanā¦no , iāll quote my repeated statements of my only arguments :
and then in this response
If you want to attribute some other argument to me (that isnāt a direct response to your questions) Iād appreciate if you could point out where it was made.
All of my responses were in good faith, if you donāt understand that dismissing something because it is unlikely is literally ruling out an option i canāt help you with that.
I donāt know what you mean by this but Iām fairly sure i havenāt argued to the contrary.
Again, i havenāt argued against this, only that itās not the only option, as was implied by your statements.
I agree, āIf you donāt agree to these things Iāve unilaterally stated to be true with no contextual support or citations then your responses are in bad faithā isnāt a discussion, itās a personal echo chamber.